tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post8046436092714789212..comments2023-10-03T11:41:21.191+01:00Comments on The Truth About Lies: A member of the set of imaginary writersJim Murdochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-85617364730865100672011-06-05T11:50:50.031+01:002011-06-05T11:50:50.031+01:00Thanks for dropping by and commenting, Rachna. I t...Thanks for dropping by and commenting, <b>Rachna</b>. I think it’s a great thing that nowadays people as far apart geographically and culturally as you and I can find common ground like this and bolster each other’s confidence: we are not alone and even if we feel alone we at least know we’re not alone in feeling alone. The problem with writing, of course, is that you do it alone and so you never see what other writers go through (and we always assume that everyone else find it easier than we do): footballers see their teammates play, firemen see their colleagues in action but most writers only meet people who say they’ve written and we have to imagine them writing. I guess that’s why we like to see photos of other writers’ rooms – some kind of proof.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-85635888922142385992011-06-04T18:33:50.625+01:002011-06-04T18:33:50.625+01:00Great post, Jim. Its so relevant for us writers. W...Great post, Jim. Its so relevant for us writers. We are seeking our writing identity, finding our voice. And the publishing journey definitely bruises our self esteem. The poem is wonderful.<br /><br />Thanks for dropping by my blog and leaving a comment. I like the titles of your books.Rachna Chhabriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16900999965919504282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-3740721071561213872011-06-03T10:08:10.440+01:002011-06-03T10:08:10.440+01:00Whose looking down on who, Annie? Sometimes I wond...Whose looking down on who, <b>Annie</b>? Sometimes I wonder. When I went to Weegie Wednesday everyone was very nice but the questions were all the same: a) What type of stuff do you write? b) What are you working on just now? and c) Have you been published? and I found all three hard to answer but as soon as I said I’d self-published two novels I could see what they were thinking: <i>Oh, he’s not a real writer</i> and when they told me they wrote for children I thought … well, you don’t want to know what I thought but it was less than charitable. To my mind a <i>real</i> writer is someone who follows his heart and writes what he has to write. Other writers would say that a real writer is one who can write a book and get it accepted by a traditional publisher even if that means reworking the book to suit the needs of said publisher as long as an income can be made at the end of the day; plumbers work to earn money, lawyers do and so how can you be a writer if you’re not earning? It’s a point but not the only one. I do everything myself because that way I take all the credit and I accept any blame. If there is a single typo in my book it’s my fault and no one else’s.<br /><br />The thing about Weegie Wednesday, <b>Art</b>, is that it was more of a social thing. I went at Xmas and so there was a bit more of a party atmosphere but I was told that the only real difference is that they usually have a couple of guest speakers to break up the evening. Other than that it’s just mingling/schmoosing and I find that hard. I stayed two hours I think and it was a long two hours. After I answered people’s questions I pretty much sat there sipping my Coke until I thought I could politely escape. It was too noisy. An old fella tried to spark up a conversation at one point but it was clear he was struggling every bit as much as me. Don’t get me wrong, everyone was friendly; it was me, it was most definitely me.<br /><br />I would love to say that, like you, I don't give a rat's ass what people think of me OR of my writing but that’s not the case. I want to be liked. It doesn’t matter that I don’t agree with the standards that other people use to judge me I still want a favourable judgement. And I’m never going to get that. There are too many people out there who think that their way of looking at the world is the only right one and if you don’t conform then sod you. There are too many groups with too many different standards. It’s impossible to please all the people all of the time. Or even most of the people most of the time. I can live with some of the people some of the time and it helps if some of those just happen to be writers. <br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-53139837697043853192011-06-02T17:03:12.189+01:002011-06-02T17:03:12.189+01:00I've very much gotten over the "not wanti...I've very much gotten over the "not wanting to be judged" feeling when it comes to others who write because I've been attacked, vilified, ostracized, banned, and vilified twice by various groups of writers, both online and in the real world. My jaundiced view of poets online is precisely because of being the target so many times. I wasn't alone in being targeted, it was usually group vs. group; I was usually in the group speaking truth to power, truth to managerial lies, or refusing to toe someone's line. <br /><br />I have met no group, online or off, more vicious than those who decide to form and enforce cliques on online poetry workshop critique boards. The deep irony of course is that people who are dedicated to using words to express themselves often try to rub out the expressions of others. The other irony is when they deny that words can hurt feelings, when they know damn well they can. LOL<br /><br />My point here is that it was a good means of learning to get over feeling judged as a writer. After the burn scars heal, you end up with a toucher skin.<br /><br />Last month I tried to go back and participate on one of those old boards where I had once been an integral member. It lasted about two weeks, when I realized that I was going to be attacked by some people (who had once been friends, but in the interim seem to have gone off the deep end) anytime I said anything, anywhere, for any reason. So that door is closed again.<br /><br />One reason writers become solitary is because they're too thin-skinned. I do not say that judgmentally, but as an observation. Being thin-skinned means being sensitive enough to let the world in, via experience and imagination, and thus be able to reproduce it in words. Channel it, re-express it.<br /><br />But writers' groups do not nurture the thin-skinned into becoming better writers. Maybe some groups offer emotional support to some, but how does that improve one's writing? It seems to always be the dilemma that groups of writers either offer emotional support OR they offer devastatingly honest critique about the writing. (The worst offer neither.) It seems to be a genuine either/or. I can take the honest critiques about the writing, as long as they're confined to the writing. The moment you start critiquing the writer, you've got a potential Situation in the making.<br /><br />So these days I don't give a rat's ass what people think of me OR of my writing. I'm not writing for them. I'm not even writing "for myself." It's just something I do. People don't have to like; and appears that most don't, if only because those who do let you know it less often than those who don't. Most writers still think that honesty equates with negativity.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-77173980190107163922011-06-02T14:56:40.082+01:002011-06-02T14:56:40.082+01:00Hi Jim. Great post! You mentioned your bottom line...Hi Jim. Great post! You mentioned your bottom line as "not wanting to be judged." Wow, did *that* hit home. Say one writes both "writings" and poetry, feels comfortable identifying oneself as a writer but feels strange describing oneself as a poet [writing of a different sort], which has nothing to do with one's self assessment of one's worth or perceived talent. Where's that coming from? Fear of judgment (by others) that suggests a contrary evaluation? Maybe responses to poetry, as with art, are more subjective than to 'writing'. <br /><br />I share your sense of discomfort (and sometimes dread) at the prospect of hobnobbing with writers where sometimes one's lack (or method) of publication automatically places you in a certain perceptual category (the word "wannabe" comes to mind). <br /><br />I think it's when we remove that "I-don't-give-a-fig-who-likes-this-or-not" mental obstacle and write the best we can, *as* ourselves, regardless of how we feel it might be judged, that sometimes even our writer-selves become surprised. <br /><br />Anyway, about 'voice' and 'identity', sometimes we're our own worst enemies. "What you see is what you get" is both true and not, depending on who the *you* is and in what circumstances. As to having to be physically present at a noisy writers' gathering, I'd take these on-line, thoughtful discussions amongst both readers and writers, such as in this comment box, anyday! Thanks, as always, Jim, for much to think about.awynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01541564613932885469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-73099886608803016652011-06-02T09:00:07.615+01:002011-06-02T09:00:07.615+01:00What’s nice, Ken, is that occasionally, at least w...What’s nice, <b>Ken</b>, is that occasionally, at least with me, I pick up something I’ve written several years ago, read it and go, “You know, I can actually write.” Most of the time I read old stuff and squirm with embarrassment but I tend to rely on moments like that to keep me going. Tooth out – by the numbers from all accounts – and feeling just a wee bit delicate this morning.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-17534737713875149482011-06-01T12:18:55.631+01:002011-06-01T12:18:55.631+01:00My self-esteem as a writer rises and falls like th...My self-esteem as a writer rises and falls like the tides and may also be related to the moon-cycle. :)<br /><br />It's good that the writing stays and stays, good or bad as the eye of the beholder sees it.<br /><br />It's great that there's a beholder.<br /><br />Good luck with the tooth. Be nice to yourself after it's all done.Ken Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07775956557261111127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-56765104941316596272011-06-01T10:55:34.722+01:002011-06-01T10:55:34.722+01:00It's a bit late in the day, and you're a b...It's a bit late in the day, and you're a bit long in the tooth to have your wisdom teeth removed, Jim, aren't you?<br /><br />On the other hand, my husband at sixty-one, still has one of his baby teeth in place. It has refused to drop out.<br /><br />I hope it's not too traumatic for you, wisdom tooth removal that is. I for one can identify with the horrors of visits to the dentist.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-62419874112018203162011-06-01T10:03:34.764+01:002011-06-01T10:03:34.764+01:00Gwilym, I was exactly the same. I was such an arro...<b>Gwilym</b>, I was exactly the same. I was such an arrogant cuss at about that age. I liked the idea, the very Romantic idea, that Inspiration descended on me, that for the few minutes I was writing I was different, I was special.<br /><br />I like that phrase, <b>Litrefs</b>, “Identity depends on continuity.” I can see that hanging around my brain for a while. It’s like an ex-military man insisting on using his rank as a civilian years after he’s stopped <i> being</i> that person, forcing that ‘identity’ to continue beyond its expiry date.<br /><br /><b>Man of la Book</b>, yes, you’re quite right there. That’s why I used him as an example because he has that extra layer. I had a look at your review. The book sounds interesting but I was more struck by your question: So tell me, would you like a chance to reinvent yourself? My answer has to be: Yes, because that’s what I did four years ago, decided to bring the writer in me to the fore and stop trying to be “normal”. Nowadays I don’t spend any significant time around non-writers. I’ve shed my Clark Kent persona. Not sure if I’m Superman or Kal El though.<br /><br />I don’t really have an answer for you, <b>Art</b>. Perhaps painters and composers aren’t as gregarious as writers are and so don’t face as many opportunities for criticism. I’ve not looked but I can’t imagine many critique sites for painters and composers but they’re all over the place on the Web as far as writers go. I would also imagine that there are more amateur writers than there are amateur painters and composers. I can agree up to a point with what Litrefs suggests but I’ve painted and written music and I did that alone and had no desire to seek out other painters or composers so I don’t know.<br /><br />And, <b>Lis</b>, I actually wrote this post six months ago. I’ve not been back to Weegie Wednesday since. I did go to a poetry critique group a couple of weeks later and a poetry reading a couple of weeks after that (I slunk in late – hated it – and only stayed a half hour) but since then I’ve been nowhere and have very much curled up into my little shell. A friend of mine is having a book launch in Glasgow in three weeks and I feel duty bound to go but I don’t want to. I feel bad about not wanting to but I can’t help how I feel. I’d be happy to meet her for a quiet coffee but I know there will be others there at the launch, people I know from online, and I don’t want to be judged; that’s the bottom line. I feel like a comedian who is expected to be funny all the time and who disappoints people when he can’t be. I hate to disappoint people. Online I have hours and hours to get my words right. I’ve no idea how long it took me to write this but it was probably two or three days easily. It’s easy to sound like you know what you’re talking about when you have time to consider every line. (That’s what I hate about Jane Austin characters with their ‘considered’ responses.)<br /><br />I think one thing I probably should have talked about in this article is how we identify with people and what identification has to do with identity. I am genuinely uncomfortable when around other writers and the feelings are odd, ranging from feeling superior to them (the hobbyists) to not feeling worthy to ties their shoelaces (the professionals). Suffice to say my identity as a writer comes under scrutiny when in the company of others who I should feel at home with. Carrie’s two friends weren’t too bad because we met them in the flat and people always play better on their home pitch. <br /><br />Can’t think of anything else to say just now. I’m going to have a wisdom tooth extracted in a couple of hours. I’m fretting and finding it hard to concentrate on what I’m writing.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-46715906447806480342011-05-31T23:02:14.525+01:002011-05-31T23:02:14.525+01:00Groups can bolster self esteem, Jim but they can a...Groups can bolster self esteem, Jim but they can also crush it. I should know I've written about it. Funny that. Once I write about something it takes on a different hue. It becomes strangely more manageable, for me at least.<br /><br /> Identity is another of those trick words. I agree with you here, Jim. I reckon identity is multiple and unfixed, fluid depending on where you are where you've been and where you're about to go. <br /><br />This here is another terrific post, Jim. I enjoy it when you reach beyond someone else's writing into your own. Not that I don't enjoy your thoughts about other people's books and writing but unlike you who starts with an interest in the poem not the poet, I'm interested in both, and particularly interested in the person behind the poem, however much I might imagine him or her to be.<br /><br />As for belonging to a club of writers, we are such diverse bunch, I can't imagine belonging to a large group. There are so many different types of writers.<br /><br />I heard an Australian writer Craig Sherbourne on the radio yesterday talking to our BookShow's Ramona Koval, a Melbourne/Australia must, and he talked about the way he does 'inside jobs', as opposed to 'outside jobs'. <br /><br />Outside jobs Sherbourne reckons are the stuff of journalism, the business of getting the overall outside impression, whereas he's interested in the inside story, getting inside people's heads, including his own, to better understand the human condition.<br /><br />I'm an inside job person, too, Jim, as I suspect you are, however much yo prefer not to focus too much on the autobiographical. <br /><br />There are some universals however much we must be wary of generalising and of reductive thinking.<br /><br />Thanks, Jim.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-2812746515204515222011-05-31T20:17:13.122+01:002011-05-31T20:17:13.122+01:00litrefs, I think you're probably right about t...litrefs, I think you're probably right about those contributing factors. <br /><br />But I find that poets have egos just as fragile as novelists, if not more so. maybe because their art is even harder to make a living at. And more ignored by the general reader. Some poets give the public the finger and retreat into their ivory-tower solitudes; others become more vocal about bringing poetry to the public. Which route a poet chooses, there, might give some clues to other aspects of their personalities.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-62046761084564815102011-05-31T18:47:09.362+01:002011-05-31T18:47:09.362+01:00"I'm not really sure WHY writers seem to ..."I'm not really sure WHY writers seem to have much more fragile egos" - Art<br />I've heard it said that novelists (moreso than dancers, or even poets) are alone much of the time, so when they become depressed, insecure, etc they can sink fast. It's also claimed that because they are inhabiting the alternative reality of their novel for so long, they can become detached from the stabilising support of The Real World.Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-15181663319958854182011-05-31T16:55:29.906+01:002011-05-31T16:55:29.906+01:00I think it's important to not confuse self-est...I think it's important to not confuse self-esteem with self-worth or self-confidence. They may be interrelated, but in practical terms they have different outcomes. One can show self-confidence without necessarily having a lot of inner self-esteem; some people call that acting. Self-worth is the idea you have of your own value; self-esteem is the acknowledgment that you DO have value. <br /><br />Caroline Myss, one of my favorite teachers of spiritual matters, talks about how self-esteem is more important to have than many other characteristics. I agree with her that genuine love is not possible without first having self-esteem. Otherwise you will try to fill the gaps in yourself with other people, and that leads to toxic codependence. The point is that you have to already feel good about your own self before you are ready to meet others as an equal.<br /><br />I think that's also true for writers. Writers seem to really lack self-esteem, even more than artists in other genres, in my experience. All of us suffer from not being taking seriously by our materialistic, product-oriented culture. But writers seem to have much more fragile egos than, say, dancers or composers. Of course I'm making a big generalization, and there are individual exceptions, but this is based on being and artist and observing other artists throughout my whole life. I'm not really sure WHY writers seem to have much more fragile egos; they're certainly no more "sensitive artists" than artists in other genres. Maybe writers, because they're good with words, are also good at talking themselves into dysfunctional ideas about themselves. Maybe it's because writers take their words as representations of truth, as truth itself, rather than remembering than words are only symbolic representations: signs and symbols, with no physical existence. Maybe that's the real source of writers' anxieties: knowing that in the end they're playing with airy ideas, and that these airy ideas can easily get detached from the real world.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-49613777295732783532011-05-31T16:27:44.176+01:002011-05-31T16:27:44.176+01:00Very interesting and informative post. I just rea...Very interesting and informative post. I just read a book which deals with identity called Ordinary Thunderstorms by William Boyd (my thoughts: <a href="http://manoflabook.com/wp/?p=2045" rel="nofollow">http://manoflabook.com/wp/?p=2045</a>, thought you might be interested.<br /><br />By the way, the one thing which differentiates Superman from most other superheros is that Clark Kent is his alter-ego and not the other way around.<br /><br />He is "super", but is in constant struggle to be a "man".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-380441402231020922011-05-31T13:02:37.910+01:002011-05-31T13:02:37.910+01:00I base my writerly self-worth on what I've hav...I base my writerly self-worth on what I've have produced rather than what I believe I can produce. I base my general self-worth only partly on my writerly self-worth. I'm quite capable of changing the proportions of the ingredients that I use to assess my self-worth.<br /><br />I go to various writers meetings, but I don't travel much and don't feel part of the festival/workshop-hopping writers community. Hay-on-Wye? No thanks. Though I've heard about people having a web-persona and a face-to-face persona (one meek, perhaps, and one stroppy) I've not experienced this in practise. More often, a writing-persona doesn't match a face-to-face persona.<br /><br />Identity depends on continuity too - I've read SF stories about human duplication where there's a question of whether the identical copy should feel guilt for the sins of the original.<br /><br />Alzheimers tests theories of identity. My mother still had her clothes preferences, characteristic gestures, and knew the right time to laugh even though much of her individuality (as in "we are what we remember") had gone.Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-8298483953003281352011-05-31T12:28:54.606+01:002011-05-31T12:28:54.606+01:00Thanks for sharing the poem, Jim.
I think the on...Thanks for sharing the poem, Jim. <br /><br />I think the only time males really know everything there is to know is in their 13th or 14th year; in that period when they are at their most revolting. I suspect it may different with the fairer sex.Gwil Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03305768121713053837noreply@blogger.com