tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post6726956074200611914..comments2023-10-03T11:41:21.191+01:00Comments on The Truth About Lies: Less is more or less (part two)Jim Murdochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-63924368057630552302008-05-30T09:04:00.000+01:002008-05-30T09:04:00.000+01:00Thanks for the feedback, Michael. As you might hav...Thanks for the feedback, Michael. As you might have noticed it was a very popular post. It was also a very enjoyable subject to research. There is clearly a huge interest in short poetry forms and I was pleased the article was so well received.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-62160208858545172092008-05-30T00:50:00.000+01:002008-05-30T00:50:00.000+01:00Thanks for referring to my one-line poem, which, i...Thanks for referring to my one-line poem, which, in comparison with some of the pieces you include, seems very wordy indeed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-44601501263600157512008-04-20T13:43:00.000+01:002008-04-20T13:43:00.000+01:00Geejay, thanks for the kind words and the link. If...<B>Geejay</B>, thanks for the kind words and the link. If I have a tribe, does that make me a chieftain?Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-63531019697055562412008-04-20T12:52:00.000+01:002008-04-20T12:52:00.000+01:00Hi,Just thought to let you know I like your blog a...Hi,<BR/><BR/>Just thought to let you know I like your blog and have put up a link to your site from ours.<BR/><BR/>May your tribe increase!<BR/><BR/>GeejayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-56590583887107844262008-04-08T18:43:00.000+01:002008-04-08T18:43:00.000+01:00Thanks for the feedback, Glenn. I'm afraid when yo...Thanks for the feedback, Glenn. I'm afraid when you talk about trying to work out about an ancient society I'm reminded of the scene in Woody Allen's <I>Sleeper</I> where they bring out items from his era for his character Miles Monroe to pass comment on. Regarding a photo of Nixon: "I'm not sure who he is, but every time he left the White House they counted the silverware". Priceless.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-63088817612636641162008-04-07T01:38:00.000+01:002008-04-07T01:38:00.000+01:00hi Jim,Fun seeing my little headache piece in your...hi Jim,<BR/><BR/>Fun seeing my little headache piece in your essay -- fresh off the latest series (of headaches). <BR/><BR/>My own thoughts on short poems probably go on too long. I like them. As you say about the J. Mutt urinal, context is an important part of the piece. Some collections of Sappho include poems that survive only as a single word. No doubt the poet herself would be as dubious about this as a poem as Tchaikovsky would three notes being called a symphony. On the other hand fragments are fascinating. Sometimes all we know of a species (or a culture) is a worn tooth or a shard of pottery with a suggestion of paint on it. Tiny pieces can be interesting even with the most minimal context if you look & look at them.Glenn Ingersollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674475308395975995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-45969009523204152322008-04-04T23:36:00.000+01:002008-04-04T23:36:00.000+01:00Thanks for that, Shelly. Hey, why don't you write ...Thanks for that, Shelly. Hey, why don't you write a piece on your own blog about the differences between Chinese poetry and Japanese? Most people's knowledge of Oriental poetry begins and end with the haiku.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-89008661496860334292008-04-04T11:43:00.000+01:002008-04-04T11:43:00.000+01:00Wow, Jim, you've taken such a small starting point...Wow, Jim, you've taken such a small starting point and made such an expansive discussion of poetry. Good stuff.<BR/><BR/>Since I've been in China (about 6-7 weeks now), I've been unable to access blogspot blogs due to some proxy issues. I was talking about you in a post today (all good), and was surprised when I came here to get the link and the site actually opened up. Great to be able to read you again. I'll be off to devour more of your excellent posts now!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-38018786684778267832008-04-03T23:06:00.000+01:002008-04-03T23:06:00.000+01:00Appreciate the feedback, Art, all very valid. I th...Appreciate the feedback, Art, all very valid. I thought to bring up other forms of Japanese poetry when I wrote this (particularly the senryu) but the piece was getting out of hand as it was. I'm not an expert on haiku by a long chalk – I've only ever written a half-dozen – but it is a popular format. I think I'll spend some time researching Oriental poetry forms (no one ever talks about Chinese poetry for example) and maybe build up a follow-up article.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-36722315036181774852008-04-03T22:43:00.000+01:002008-04-03T22:43:00.000+01:00Your post brings out something that the poets who ...Your post brings out something that the poets who do this sort of thing often doesn't admit to: that it's a gimmick. As you say, once someone has done a book full of blank pages, every other attempt to do so becomes an imitation that must refer to the first instance. A lot of this stuff is clever—but cleverness lasts only as long as the gimmick is in play, then there's no more frisson. Tom Paxton was fond of writing short topical political songs every year which he "short shelf-life songs." A lot of gimmick poetry has an extremely short shelf-late (or sell-by date, if you prefer).<BR/><BR/>I want to point out one very important point about haiku as a genre, however: What David Bader and others do are technically not haiku, they are senryu. <BR/><BR/>Senryu are poems in haiku form but their subject matter is light and humorous, and is often about the foibles of human life. The form is named after Senryu Karai (18th century), the poet who initiated the genre, as a subset of haiku. But it's gone its own way.<BR/><BR/>Haiku is about a lot more than the form, then the syllable-count. (This is where 99 percent of English-language haiku writers get lost.) Without getting into a windbag lecture about it, let's just say that knowing the difference between a haiku and a senryu might be very useful. Most of what folks on this thread are calling haiku are not, although several of them are legitimately senryu. Just thought I'd mention it, that's all.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-24796026231677190372008-03-31T22:26:00.000+01:002008-03-31T22:26:00.000+01:00Rachel, I'm flattered. I've never lectured but I c...Rachel, I'm flattered. I've never lectured but I can't imagine keeping people's attention without a decent slice of humour no matter what the subject.<BR/><BR/>And, Ani, yes, I think a lot of writers could learn a lesson from the composer Gustav Holst who once observed a composer's most vital piece of equipment is an eraser.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-56256044898762757952008-03-31T15:58:00.000+01:002008-03-31T15:58:00.000+01:00Superb and interesting series of posts (and also, ...Superb and interesting series of posts (and also, a bit humourous in the irony of two posts and a load of comments about poems that are a word or letter in length). ;)<BR/><BR/>I think the most important thing I take away from this sort of poetry (regardless of the length of the piece I'm writing) is something I struggle with daily: that absolutely every single word has its place, makes an impact, isn't wasted, lazy, or useless. Or more succinctly, 'that every word tell,' as Strunk put it.Ani Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02139009026964141906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-45185592101135958102008-03-31T13:41:00.000+01:002008-03-31T13:41:00.000+01:00You do give good lecture, Jim. I think I might hav...You do give good lecture, Jim. I think I might have stayed awake more at uni if you'd been teaching.<BR/>I liked the 'ah factor' quote...simple and a possibility. Except of course one person's 'ah' can easily be another's 'euch'..Rachel Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11803852725693518924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-53360805478269181472008-03-31T11:43:00.000+01:002008-03-31T11:43:00.000+01:00Thanks for that, Sharon. I've run acrosss m a l l ...Thanks for that, Sharon. I've run across<BR/><A HREF="http://smallpoems.sbpoet.net/" REL="nofollow">s m a l l p o e m s</A> before. It's a nice wee site. It's probably just me but I get bored with long poems very quickly. I like a poem to focus on a single thought or idea or image, say what they have to say and, as I've said before, get off the page. Nice to hear from you and I hope April works out for you. Usually I'm happy if I've written a poem <I>a month</I> but I've been on a bit of a roll of late. It'll end but I'm enjoying it while it's here.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-83991998772564470322008-03-31T03:07:00.000+01:002008-03-31T03:07:00.000+01:00I enjoyed, very much, both of these posts. And I l...I enjoyed, very much, both of these posts. And I learned from them, too. <BR/><BR/>So, thank you. <BR/><BR/>I like small poems, and have written a few: <A HREF="http://smallpoems.sbpoet.net" REL="nofollow">s m a l l p o e m s</A>. You've given me much to explore.<BR/><BR/>Timely, too, as I'm hoping to write a poem a day in April.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-67550814202840709872008-03-30T23:44:00.000+01:002008-03-30T23:44:00.000+01:00Thanks for that, Missy. I've posted Part One. I ha...Thanks for that, Missy. I've posted Part One. I have a book review due tomorrow so I'll add that on too.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-83458390330569369812008-03-30T19:43:00.000+01:002008-03-30T19:43:00.000+01:00Jim, wonderful post. Would you consider linking to...Jim, wonderful post. Would you consider linking to it in the next Just Write Blog Carnival? If not this one, then any article/post you'd like to share. It's been a while since your name appeared in the carnival. I noticed! ;)<BR/><BR/>http://blogcarnival.com/bc/submit_2957.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-31109937804405544442008-03-29T18:16:00.000+00:002008-03-29T18:16:00.000+00:00I'm a fan of very short poems, but I found that mo...I'm a fan of very short poems, but I found that most of the examples you gave don't work for me as poems. As word puzzles, yes, but I want a poem to do more than be clever.<BR/><BR/>But, of course, then we start getting into really BIG issues instead of really small ones.<BR/><BR/>Greatly enjoyed.Julie Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06878713173193835861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-58366522492084394872008-03-29T11:52:00.000+00:002008-03-29T11:52:00.000+00:00Thanks for the feedback, Dave. I loved your no con...Thanks for the feedback, Dave. I loved your no content poem. I only ran into Mark Granier at the 11th hour and added in that section just prior to posting. I'm rather glad I did. As for whether a single note could constitute a piece of music, I think we have to say, "Yes," if only to cover our backs. <BR/><BR/>I think the point I was trying to make about the white and black paintings and the same would go for Cage's <I>3'33"</I> and the books with no words is that now we've got it out of our systems the only way to go is up. Everything's cyclical and that's fine. <BR/><BR/>These have been a couple of fascinating posts. They were great fun to write and I half-wish I'd included more of the stuff I ran across and maybe added an extra day. Ah well. We'll have to see how my two part post on metaphors goes down when I get round to posting it.Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-56893051224542207542008-03-29T11:31:00.000+00:002008-03-29T11:31:00.000+00:00An excellent post, Jim. There is so much, it is di...An excellent post, Jim. There is so much, it is difficult to know where to comment, but question: could a single note constitute a piece of music? Rothko's single colour paintings, by the way, are only single-coloured in reproduction. Standing in front of them the colour seems to oscillate with a variety of shades and hues. I was fascinated by <BR/>graveyarduskilldeer. I find that just beginning to take off. I have just left a comment on Lightbox to the effect that when I was a tiddly kid I wrote a no-content poem entitled On Taking My Penny Black Stamp into the Road to Show a Thief. As I have also just pointed out, I did not know at the time that I had written a no-content poem - and have never since had the nerve to write another.Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-52015752931396051122008-03-29T10:13:00.000+00:002008-03-29T10:13:00.000+00:00I enjoyed your bog thanks so much for sharingI enjoyed your bog thanks so much for sharingJ. C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09845426562424925708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-37603051779477621942008-03-28T22:36:00.000+00:002008-03-28T22:36:00.000+00:00I so agree with canucklehead, wow. But I disagree ...I so agree with canucklehead, wow. But I disagree with geof--I think "unfini" is more, well, unfinished. Stopped me and made me think. Of course, that's just my subjective opinion about something totally subjective--loved it all the same.Conda Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12972790965426924941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-58701316243524472882008-03-28T18:07:00.000+00:002008-03-28T18:07:00.000+00:00Geof, appreciate the feedback and for letting me k...Geof, appreciate the feedback and for letting me know about the typo which has now been fixed. It was an enjoyable article to research and write and your sites were a great help. The whole point of an article like this is to get people to investigate the topic in question further, hence the number of hyperlinks. I'd have to write a whole book to cover the topic of micropoetry and I'm not sure I'm passionate enough about it. I have always preferred shorter forms but I do like a little meat on my bones.<BR/><BR/>As for 'unfini' – it was written totally off the cuff. I haven't included it in my canon because I'd never think to submit it anywhere. That said, 'Empty' was attached to an e-mail and away within a few days of my finishing it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the note too about "praecisio" – I missed that term in my research – I do hope people read through these comments. I know of one woman who has been motivated to pick up a pen after reading this so that's not a bad thing at all.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Asphodel, thanks for the comment. And you're welcome back any time. We have an open door policy here. My blog is your blog. (I have no idea what that might be in Spanish).<BR/><BR/><BR/>Mark, glad we made contact before I posted this. And I really do hope some people check out your blog. I'm writing a blog at the moment about how hard it is to attract readers to a serious (or even half-serious) literary blog and I'm glad to do what I can to point people to writers who have something to say. Loved the John Cooper Clark haiku – I wish I'd remembered it but where would you draw the line. Did you read my blog about him a week or two back? I mean how many poets do you know who've done an advert for Kellogs?Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-62432091521770044222008-03-28T12:23:00.000+00:002008-03-28T12:23:00.000+00:00Hi Jim,Another interesting post. Thanks for puttin...Hi Jim,<BR/><BR/>Another interesting post. Thanks for putting in a link to my blog. If anyone clicks on it they should check out the couplet by Hulme (called simply IMAGE). Hulme, as I understand it, was the founder of the Imagist movement, which Pound helped popularise in the early 20th Century. <BR/><BR/>I don't think many good poets confine themselves solely to very short poems, but I see no reason why such forms should be dismissed (as they are, from time to time). Personally, I tend to blanch slightly at the prospect of reading a whole book of, say, haiku. Partly because so many haiku are weak and insipid. On the other hand, a poet like Samuel Manashe is consistently short AND strong. <BR/><BR/>The one-word poem only really works, as far as I am concerned, when it is balanced by a (usually much longer) title, as with Hamilton-Finlay's examples. As for the one-letter poems, these a merely visual puns. No harm in that, but I think they have missed their calling; they really want to be paintings. That 'm' with the extra arch is architectural rather than poetic. <BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I take it most have come across the British poet John Cooper Clark's haiku joke: To convey one's mood / in seventeen syllables / is very diffic.<BR/><BR/>Another haiku-jester is David Bader, who is responsible for '100 Great Books In Haiku', such as this:<BR/><BR/>The Odyssey<BR/>Homer<BR/><BR/>Aegean forecast -<BR/>storms, chance of one-eyed giants,<BR/>delays expected.<BR/><BR/>His recent one is 'Haikus For Jews'. a sample: <BR/><BR/>Cherry blossoms bloom.<BR/>Sure, it's beautiful, but is<BR/>it good for the Jews?Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-87391171566177476742008-03-28T01:25:00.000+00:002008-03-28T01:25:00.000+00:00What an UTTERly interesting post! I shall be back...What an UTTERly interesting post! <BR/><BR/>I shall be back to read again another day :)Asphodelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08936577026237158963noreply@blogger.com