tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post5021842834386425846..comments2023-10-03T11:41:21.191+01:00Comments on The Truth About Lies: How to write flarfJim Murdochhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-10175625500135985262011-09-22T09:50:10.269+01:002011-09-22T09:50:10.269+01:00Marketers do this all the time, Art. All you have ...Marketers do this all the time, <b>Art</b>. All you have to do is look at the list of ingredients and you don’t see ‘water’, you see ‘aqua’. I’ve also noticed that American TV stations aren’t showing repeats any more, they have ‘encore episodes’. Eh? So too with ‘repurposing’ It’s doesn’t change what it is. Intent has nothing to do with it. Interesting that Goldsmith worked in advertising. Thanks for the link.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-11197668767431963532011-09-21T18:33:55.587+01:002011-09-21T18:33:55.587+01:00An article by Kenneth Goldsmith, sort of defending...An article by Kenneth Goldsmith, sort of defending flarf etc. It's only half-convincing, because some of his premises are shaky. The comment stream is very pithy.<br /><br />http://chronicle.com/article/Uncreative-Writing/128908/Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-61944693065939332352011-09-16T13:57:10.799+01:002011-09-16T13:57:10.799+01:00Daisies indeed click with me, Brad. Glad you had s...Daisies indeed click with me, <b>Brad</b>. Glad you had some fun with this.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-19277868204738432272011-09-16T08:26:43.559+01:002011-09-16T08:26:43.559+01:00Flarf, I ween...
,if Google spews out true
(perha...Flarf, I ween...<br /><br />,if Google spews out true<br />(perhaps because some view)<br />reflections of society,<br />where by society we mean<br />the part we are a part of<br />i.e.,the part called 'internet'<br />that has the printed words in it,<br />then clearly<br />"flarfists Google upchuck spewers"<br />in terms of searching.<br /><br />Therefore Ben's<br />just one of ten<br />thousand names for aliens<br />and guide the spider<br />reach the flowers.<br />Daisies click with you?<br /><br />Thanks Jim!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-44969135933822583102011-09-14T23:43:01.734+01:002011-09-14T23:43:01.734+01:00Well I’ve learned something new today too, Vyrasta...Well I’ve learned something new today too, <b>Vyrastas</b>. I found an L337 Speak Convertor and so I plugged in the poem at the end of the blog to see what it did with it. This was the result:<br /><br /><br />4LL (4rD$, r3/\/\0\/3 j00r$3LPh 9r4|\|DP4r3|\|7$ \/\/3r3. (|-|4P73r L1Ph3. 50/\/\3 p30PL3 d0 |\|07 |<|\|0\/\/ 70 $4'/ 7|-|@ 7|-|3 0r94|\|1Z4710|\| \/\/3 R 4((1D3|\|7$. L0$7 7|-|3 |\|3><7 d4'/ Phr0/\/\ 4 (0|\|\/3|\|13|\|7 L0(4710|\|. R3P0r7 4|\| 4((1D3|\|7 |\|0 Phr33D0/\/\ 70 U$3 17. 3Z3|<13L.<br /><br /><br />And it converts back perfectly.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-35383446009739320592011-09-14T21:50:00.660+01:002011-09-14T21:50:00.660+01:00Well this was quite the blog post. Didn't kno...Well this was quite the blog post. Didn't know anything about flarf, so thanks for the detailed introduction.<br /><br />Every type of art needs to have some kind of bounds and restrictions on it, though, in my opinion, otherwise as a whole they cease to have definition. If any text can be considered poetry, then what exactly is "poetry?" There has to be something to distinguish poetry from non-poetry to give it definition in the first place.<br /><br />I suppose it was only a matter of time before poetry with net/l33t speak made it's way around.Brad Murgenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09513148650073617139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-91809442350907679372011-09-12T17:52:56.233+01:002011-09-12T17:52:56.233+01:00If I can get a guy called Mr Lonely to smile then ...If I can get a guy called <b>Mr Lonely</b> to smile then a good day's work was done, that's all I can say.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-2179531952165190692011-09-12T07:46:42.946+01:002011-09-12T07:46:42.946+01:00Always happy to see a comment from you, Dick. Only...Always happy to see a comment from you, <b>Dick</b>. Only time will tell whether, as you say, history regards flarf as “gimmick, game or bollocks” – I can’t imagine anyone thought Dada will still be remembered after all these years – but the important thing is that people are still willing to embrace new ideas and set down new rules and the more I’m thinking about it the more I’m realising is that rules produce probably more interesting work than allowing an artist or writer to do whatever they want. I suspect that the use of the Internet to generate ideas will just become another bow in the quiver of writers, something they do naturally without thinking about it because it’s there. And it will produce some crap and it will produce some quality and that’s the way these things go.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-81897166475430603322011-09-11T15:37:50.370+01:002011-09-11T15:37:50.370+01:00As usual. coming late to the party, it's all b...As usual. coming late to the party, it's all been said. This is a great read, Jim, and gimmick, game or bollocks, there's enough here to engage intellect and humour in good measure. Thanks for this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-86787465506670540652011-09-11T10:51:08.094+01:002011-09-11T10:51:08.094+01:00I'm quite fond of Malcom Arnold's music, D...I'm quite fond of Malcom Arnold's music, <b>Dave</b>. He does tend to get overlooked in favour of the likes of Britten and Vaughan Williams but he's worth investigating further. If you like a good tune then you can't do any better than his sets of <i>Welsh</i>, <i>English</i>, <i>Scottish</i>, <i>Irish</i> and <i>Cornish Dances</i>, and the overtures <i>Tam o' Shanter</i>, <i>Peterloo</i> and <i>Beckus the Dandypratt</i> but I think my favoutite piece by him his his <i>Piano Concerto for Two Pianos (three hands)</i>.<br /><br />Like Walton he was also a film composer and I would recommend his scores for <i>Bridge on the River Kwai</i> and <i>Whistle Down the Wind</i>.<br /><br />I have all his symphonies. As with Vaughan Williams the later ones are more serious but the early ones are all fine pieces of music. I can't say that I find his symphonic output as memorable as Vaughan Williams or Bax but if you come across one in a bargain bin I wouldn't turn up my nose at it.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-60476902836194147502011-09-11T09:40:19.813+01:002011-09-11T09:40:19.813+01:00A neighbour who befriended me when I was having a ...A neighbour who befriended me when I was having a lot of illness as a lad, introduced me to the Malcolm Arnold. It's been a great favourite of mine ever since. I take the point that you make.Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-16127679584976615132011-09-09T15:07:35.444+01:002011-09-09T15:07:35.444+01:00I don't think you'll be alone there, Rachn...I don't think you'll be alone there, <b>Rachna</b>.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-63207227488654373102011-09-09T14:12:06.681+01:002011-09-09T14:12:06.681+01:00Thanks Jim, for introducing me to the world of Fla...Thanks Jim, for introducing me to the world of Flarf. I was frankly speaking not at all aware of it.Rachna Chhabriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16900999965919504282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-74618998742635135502011-09-09T13:16:33.070+01:002011-09-09T13:16:33.070+01:00I think I would be the same as you, Glenn. I mean,...I think I would be the same as you, <b>Glenn</b>. I mean, if you make a fuss all you’re saying is that you take yourself too seriously.<br /><br />And, <b>Dave</b>, I think it’s good placing constraints on what you do. I certainly do. And, yes, that old whipping boy: What is poetry? Who knows? But poems are certainly expressions of poetry just as paintings are expressions of art whatever that is. I think sometimes people think all poetry is supposed to be serious (with the possible exceptions of limericks, nursery rhymes and nonsense verse) and there’s no reason for that but I do think people are a little unsure how to react to poetry that doesn’t meet their preconceived ideas as to what a poem should be. As always it’s best to shift the argument sideways: take a composer like Malcolm Arnold – a serious composer of serious music – and then look carefully at his <i>Grand, Grand Overture</i> which is scored for 3 Vacuum Cleaners, 1 Floor Polisher, 4 Rifles and Orchestra. When did classical music become so serious? Composers have been having fun with music from Scarlatti’s <i>Cat Fugue</i> on.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-8859174149940764852011-09-09T11:06:22.448+01:002011-09-09T11:06:22.448+01:00It's poetry Jim, if the author says it is. At ...It's poetry Jim, if the author says it is. At any rate, who can say that it's not poetry? To my knowledge no one has ever come up with a definition either of art or poetry. Oh, lots have said it's this or it's that, but there's been nothing which I would call definitive.<br /><br />As for Flarf, it strikes me as being no different in its essentials from the Oulipo movement (See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulipo" rel="nofollow">here </a>)<br />in some of its manifestations: you choose an unlikely constraint and see what it throws up. I must admit, though, that OULIPO had more strings to its bow than that. Nevertheless, for a bit of fun, I think I may lookinto this a bit!Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-58321442016743321902011-09-09T01:43:26.228+01:002011-09-09T01:43:26.228+01:00Some people were so angered at that Issue One thin...Some people were so angered at that Issue One thing. How dare someone appropriate my name, claim I wrote some piece of garbage, that's my integrity on the line, etc, etc. <br /><br />I was amused by the whole thing, amused to see my name in it even. The piece attributed to me was nothing and who would ever see it?Glenn Ingersollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674475308395975995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-68412023056486748752011-09-08T18:14:46.517+01:002011-09-08T18:14:46.517+01:00I’ve never coped well the randomness in art, Tim. ...I’ve never coped well the randomness in art, <b>Tim</b>. I’ve used it to restrict my choices, as in the cut-ups (and I’ve done something similar with music), but I’ve always wanted to smooth out the resultant piece. And you’re right, rhyme does restrict our choices and forces us to come up with new and interesting ideas. That’s why, ultimately, the poem at the end of this article doesn’t meet my own personal criteria for what a poem should be, or perhaps I should say, what a poem <i>of mine</i> should be. Yes, I produced the piece and so <i>ipso facto</i> it is mine but so is the vest I’m wearing just now and all I did was buy it.<br /><br />Is poetry “a contrived, conditioned, conceptual activity”? It can be and certainly my own leans towards a definition like that. It’s easy to get caught up with semantics when you try a define something as abstract as poetry and I’m still revising my own opinions on the subject. I know a lot of people like to distinguish between poetry and poems. Poems are artificial constructs. Poems don’t grow on trees, they require manufacture. I can understand writers wanting to work towards a purer expression of poetry but how introducing chance into the equation to reach that end baffles me unless you go down the road that says all nature, all life, springs from a chance encounter in some pool of sludge but that still tends to suggest that most experiments with randomness will result in nothing of any true worth. I’m working on a post at the moment talking about intuition. It’s not finished yet but I’m starting to come round to the idea that inspiration is not so much a chance thing as a by-product of our unconscious processing the huge amounts of data that we come in contact with and chucking up the interesting stuff for our conscious mind to do something with. More on that later.<br /><br />I agree totally with Banksy, <b>McGuire</b>, All artists are willing to suffer for their work. But why are so few prepared to learn to draw?" I hold that opinion with regard to many poets who just dump raw emotion on a page and call it poetry. It is the stuff of poetry granted but whatever happened to technique? It’s like celebrity. People these days have got it backwards, they aim to become celebrities and then look to go off and do stuff that people can celebrate. I look to artistic movements like the Impressionists who rebelled against the old-fashioned values of the French art world but they still adhered to their own set of rules no one more so than Seurat who was nothing less that scientific in his approach to his art. I’m not saying art is all about rules but imposing rules, and making artists work within limits, forces them to think more creatively, that’s what I think. <br /><br />And, <b>Art</b>, I think, as usual, we’re more on the same page than not. I’m not sure that the art we should necessarily aspire to is an ego-less one. People are fascinating to me. I want to see art that reflects their personalities and opinions as long as they have nice egos. Those artists who are filled with a sense of their own importance can go and take a walk as far as I’m concerned. My writing would be nothing without me, it depends on me and it succeeds or fails because of me but I really don’t think of myself as egocentric: I use myself as a source of ideas not because I think what I have is all that important but because that’s all I have the kind of access to that I need to write the kind of stuff I’m capable of writing. If, to rip off Woody Allen, I could look into the soul of the boy sitting next to me, do you not think I would; I bet it would be a far more interesting soul that mine. <br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-22709286755908373752011-09-08T16:32:57.914+01:002011-09-08T16:32:57.914+01:00Writing poetry is nothing but a game, a conceived ...Writing poetry is nothing but a game, a conceived contrived thing? <br /><br />Hardly.<br /><br />That definition of writing poetry only works if you view all poetry-writing as intellectual, as cerebral. Granted, some poets do just that.<br /><br />But there are so many kinds of poetry, and so many reasons to write it, that singling one definition out and claiming that all poetry is )or should be) done that way is absurd, not to mention missing the mark.<br /><br />But then: that's exactly the definitional tactic a lot of post-avant poets use to claim that their own way of thinking about poetry is the only legitimate way to do so. A manifesto usually follows.<br /><br />And it's all pretty much bollocks.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-80740930832282197292011-09-08T16:28:58.341+01:002011-09-08T16:28:58.341+01:00I respect Ken Goldsmith a lot for his work with Ub...I respect Ken Goldsmith a lot for his work with Ubuweb, the great online resource of avant-garde art, sound, video, etc. It's a terrific service.<br /><br />But his comments about anti-originality, and his citation of Cage, don't sit well with me. For one thing, I agree with you about the artist stepping in at some point. Even Cage did that—and despite Cage doing his best to remove himself from the decision-tree involving the music being made, a Cage piece still sounds very much like a Cage piece. Goldsmith is trying to use Cage as his justification, but in fact that's a misfire.<br /><br />What a lot of post-Cage artists like Goldsmith really don't understand was Cage's desire to remove the artist's EGO, not the act of CHOICE, from the process. Cage occasionally complained that performers didn't actually follow the rule-sets of the pieces they were performing; they felt free to improvise, which was not at all what Cage had intended. He wanted the rules and decisions, once they'd been made, to be strictly followed. He wasn't all about "anything goes," he was about procedures and processes. What a lot of post-Cage artists still aren't able to let go of is their OWN egos. <br /><br />When it comes to the cut-ups as done by Gysin and Burroughs, in fact there WAS a point where, as you put it, the writer does need to come in and select, and choose. The cut-ups were a way of re-working a text that the writer wrote, or chose; they were never totally random, like flarf. Cut-ups were meant to rearrange and derange, and shake up narrative perception. But the writer's voice was not intended to be eroded or completely lost.<br /><br />I view flarf and its literary cousins as more evidence of artistic Mannerism. Post-modernism is very mannerist, which I've written about before, so I won't repeat it all here.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-80246597445175261572011-09-08T15:34:16.474+01:002011-09-08T15:34:16.474+01:00Curio.
Interesting discovery. I like bits and pi...Curio. <br /><br />Interesting discovery. I like bits and pieces of it. But the cut up thing never really took to me. I see elements of my own poems in that kind of bizzare flarfing style. <br /><br />I quite like the Zepplin poem, using a kind of teenage, youtube, net-comment speak. It's a kind of new vernacular or grammar - an idioletc or even an idiotlect. <br /><br />I like the idea, but as you mention, it's not exactly skillful. We are guilty of it these days. <br /><br />'Everyone is willing to suffer for the art, but noone is willing to learn to paint.' Or, write formally, before breaking the rules, or write in imabic pentameter. <br /><br />Curio discovero as evero, dear Jimbo.McGuirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095242258892600138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-41538624386147372942011-09-08T12:14:00.316+01:002011-09-08T12:14:00.316+01:00Thanks again. I knew little about Flarf. Some of m...Thanks again. I knew little about Flarf. Some of my poems are a mixture of random and organised parts. These Flarf technique offer another way to inject some randomness. I didn't know how ruthlessly procedural Flarf poets are - seems that they sometimes do a lot of tweaking/rewriting afterwards, which suits me fine.<br /><br />It's not that clear to me what's a game/gimmick and what isn't. Rhyme has a flavour of flarf - in "An Introduction to Rhyme" Peter Dale wrote "the need for rhyme makes a writer mix in the mind registers and topic fields in an unpredictable way and this enables surprising and imaginative expressions to be developed". Writing sincere poetry is a game, a restriction. Writing poetry at all is rather a contrived, conditioned, conceptual activity.Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-6585094528587667232011-09-08T10:50:10.221+01:002011-09-08T10:50:10.221+01:00It was a fun exercise, Titus. I think it’s good ev...It was a fun exercise, <b>Titus</b>. I think it’s good every now and then to get out of your depth. What I hope with these sort of encounters is that I can take away something that will help me improve what I do already, add something to the skill set. I’m not sure that that happened here though because the only skill – and it is a skill without a doubt – is knowing where to stop. When I wrote that poem at the end I could have stopped after two or three modifications but I chose to keep it going until I found one I was satisfied with. I’m not one for overworking anyway but I used to be, never knowing when I was done, and so I suppose it was a reminder not to obsess and be satisfied when I’ve said enough. I have a notepad with about a dozen poems that I’ve scribbled down over the past few months that haven’t made it into the big red folder because I’ve become a little snobbish I think in my old age and I need to watch that.<br /><br />And, <b>Art</b>, when I started out researching this I was expecting to be disappointed. I was less so that I expected. If you believe, as I do, that the core of all poetry rests with the metaphor then this is as good a way as any of inventing/discovering new metaphors. It’s no different to cut-ups. But I think there’s a point where the writer needs to step in an do more than select, for me. In its purest sense Duchamp’s <i>Fountain</i> is art but I suspect Da Vinci would need some convincing.<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-3295981549824243212011-09-08T04:45:32.428+01:002011-09-08T04:45:32.428+01:00The problem with conceptual art, including concept...The problem with conceptual art, including conceptual poetry and flarf, is that once you figure out the gimmick, that's it. There isn't a lot of depth there to follow—and that's the root of the problem. Games are fun, but they remain games.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6327348657265652781.post-24562838600760978552011-09-08T00:50:35.478+01:002011-09-08T00:50:35.478+01:00Thank you Jim. That was some introduction.Thank you Jim. That was some introduction.Titushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16380213493011623153noreply@blogger.com